Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mug shot of Donald Trump: Difference between revisions

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Mug shot of Donald Trump

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Initially WP:BLAR'd by LilianaUwU, but contested. Per WP:NOPAGE, at times it is better to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context. This is one of those times; the subject is adequately covered in the article Georgia election racketeering prosecution and it would be better to cover this as one topic rather than making what amounts to a premature content fork. For these reasons, this should be blanked-and-redirected to the aforementioned article, where the subject would be better covered. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:20, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Widely described as a historic photograph, the most iconic photograph of a US president ever taken. Highly anticipated and subject of extensive media commentary even for months before it was taken. Clearly notable as a photograph. --Tataral (talk) 02:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – Come on, this is all over national media and is historic for any U.S. president and is notable in its own right. Even Nixon never had a mug shot taken of him at any point. Being relevant to the prosecution of Trump doesn't make it not notable in its own right. Master of Time (talk) 02:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not contesting this photo's notability. To the contrary, WP:NOPAGE is about where we cover notable topics and how that information is organized on Wikipedia. There are cases, such as this one, where several related topics, each of them similarly notable, can be collected into a single page, where the relationships between them can be better appreciated than if they were each a separate page. It makes sense to handle this as one page rather than prematurely forking this. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Georgia election racketeering prosecution as the one who originally BLARed it. I've said it already, but indeed, the subject is covered well enough in the article I originally redirected it to, it doesn't need a fork. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – This is, arguably the most important picture taken of a United States President, current or former. This is national history and this picture will be in textbooks in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.241.149.209 (talk • contribs) 02:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution. Most of the content is about the booking and not about the mug shot itself. It's premature to say that the photo itself is notable due to being historic. Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 02:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politicians, Photography, and Crime. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect or Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution - I am unsure about this article's coverage being WP:SUSTAINED in the future and I do not want to WP:CRYSTAL it. Also, not every single thing Donald Trump does deserves an article. (Oinkers42) (talk) 02:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: United States of America and Georgia (U.S. state). — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution Works best within that context. Not much to say about the photo itself. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 02:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution. This is undoubtedly an extremely iconic image, but I doubt there's much to be said about the image itself. It fits more within context of the racketeering case. Alexthefinolian (talk) 02:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The topic is sufficiently notable to warrant a separate article, considering it is the only mugshot of a US president. There are a few problems with the article talking too much about context rather than the actual photo, but these can be fixed rather than deciding to delete the article entirely 82.35.44.68 (talk) 02:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution. Ultimately there's not much to be said about the photo besides the fact that it exists and that it's historical. If the subject grows beyond just "this is an important mugshot", it should have a page. I have changed my vote to keep now that is has a sizable reception section and the article is about more than just the photo existing. Di (they-them) (talk) 02:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
~~Speedy close~~ as there is .000001% chance of this being deleted. This is not a situation where we need the eyes of XfD to have a merger discussion, all articles related to that man have sufficient eyes. Have a merger discussion on the Talk. The nomination is not disruptive, but it stands zero chance of deletion, so let's not waste seven days. Star Mississippi 02:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC) Well, I think that RFC is wrong, but apparently it's how we do things, so updating this to just a IAR Close with the same reason as before. Star Mississippi 03:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per RfC (the result of which is reflected in the text of WP:BLAR itself), contested blars are generally to be handled at AfD, so I think this is the appropriate venue. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that's ... silly (the answer, not your response). Amended, but I still think it's a waste of seven days. Star Mississippi 03:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I support invoking WP:IAR for this close. 7 days is too long for this deletion notice to remain prominent. —siro χ o 03:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution for now. Donald Trump may have a ton of indictments, but he is not officially behind bars. How it may affect the 2024 Election is up to speculation, but it hasn't happened yet. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 02:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Changed vote to Keep - Donald Trump's first Twitter post-ban was a picture of his mugshot, alleging election interference. It's also his first post on X.com. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 06:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The topic has incredible notability, sustained news coverage, and will likely keep its notability well into the future, to the point where it should be able to stand as an article of its own. The article can be reworked to focus on the photograph itself and the reactions to it, rather than the booking. Muhibm0307 (talk) 02:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Close: This just happened. Wait until the buzz dies down. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 03:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as obviously notable and one of the most important images of a US president GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 03:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. Absolutely notable. RodRabelo7 (talk) 03:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. There is context in the existing article that probably isn't appropriate at the suggested merge target, so the WP:NOPAGE suggestion might not apply. Let's consider revisiting this once it's cooled a bit. Also, we need to stop nominating so many current event articles for deletion while they are current. These discussions generally go seven days. Let's try follow the spirit of WP:RAPID and wait until things have slowed down before bringing these to AfD. —siro χ o 03:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Already recognized by many reliable sources as an iconic and historic photograph. Cullen328 (talk) 03:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The photograph has been widely covered in reliable sources and is widely recognized as historically significant. CJ-Moki (talk) 03:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pile on Keep Hardly any reason to contribute at this point, but yes this is a clearly major photo in it's own right, which already has many, many articles regarding it. Would recommend a speedy keep, as an AfD deletion while the page is no doubt being viewed a ton may come off as Wikipedia being a bit partisan (though I'm genuinely not sure in which direction, and do not feel at all this was the nominees intent). A MINOTAUR (talk) 03:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, seems to have jumped into iconic status already, and is being compared to some of the great photographs in American history. Didn't notice if the photographer is named on the page but certainly should be. An interesting instant-phenomena, and meets WP:GNG. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I understand the arguments made for this page's deletion, as we don't know the influence this will have on political events and media going forward just yet, but I think this is definitely notable enough to be its own page. In particular, we've had several news sources and commentators claim that this is a uniquely significant and/or extraordinary image of a president.[1][2][3] Independent of its subject, this image is notable as it will remain the first mugshot taken of any American president. Outside of that, we've had similar types of topics related to Trump that one could argue should be merged with other pages, but have stayed up due to having enough notability on their own. Pac-Man PHD (talk) 03:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, iconic, first of its kind for a current or former President of the United States, reliable sources are already publishing original and interpretive opinions on this and I fully expect (without going too WP:CRYSTALBALL) that this topic will only gain more detail, not less, over time. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:47, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak merge per NOPAGE. The information of this article can be easily placed into Georgia election racketeering prosecution. A stand-alone page is not needed. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^talk 04:13, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep — International coverage of the image is already coming in. Historic, iconic, worthy of an independent article with analysis, reactions, and critiques. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 04:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution. First of all, Wikipedia is not a news site, and every single thing that is in the news does not have the long-lived notability that warrants inclusion in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia:Not every single thing Donald Trump does deserves an article. We already have an article about Donald Trump. We already have an article -- many articles -- about his 2020 election nonsense. Indeed, we have an article about the single exact criminal trial that this relates to. How about a compromise. We close the AfD now, I nominate it again in a year, we ping all the people who called it the most iconic photograph in history, and see if any of them remember this. Sure, it is the FIRST EVAR mugshot of a former president, but a lot of things are the first thing of another thing, and this doesn't make them significant or notable. In fact, this is the world-historic first-ever Wikipedia comment with the word "ggjlfedjdfs" in it (go ahead, check and see). jp×g 04:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I agree with above comments that current-events articles should probably be left alone for a few days prior to the AfD oubliette, but while we're here, we might as well go through with it. jp×g 05:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Historic event, and the length of the current article is enough to justify its existence. recentlyryan RecentlyRyan
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution Much of the history section is only tangentially related to the mug shot itself and would be better covered in the main article per WP:NOPAGE. I also have doubts about the WP:SUSTAINED coverage of this. Will the case have more coverage? Absolutely. Will the mug shot in particular continue to be referenced nontrivially, such that there is more to add than dramatic descriptions of the image? I would question that, and it seems a bit premature to tell. —⁠PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 04:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sustained? This image will end up as a statue at Trump's presidential library or something, if a sculptor can get the eyes right. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Historic mug shot, with plenty of RS coverage. Davey2116 (talk) 04:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above. A historic event, with international RS coverage. Paintspot Infez (talk) 04:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution Why not just a search link to a new section in the racketeering article? that way people searching for info on the mugshot will find it, and we don't need another article. lemongrasscap (talk) 04:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above. Though recent, the article is free of a sense of bias and provides a succinct summary of one piece in an incredibly complex puzzle. This photograph may become one of the most enduring images of Trump’s life and legacy, and deserves to stay on Wikipedia as its own article. --BakedintheHole (talk) 04:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above. I was actually considering drafting the article myself before discovering it. This is definitely notable, and is a major historical event. The photo is the source of speculation itself, rather than the person in it, so that works out fine too. Resources are reliable, content is still coming in, and history is being made - deleting this page now would be ludicrously premature. Respectfully, time will prove the proposals to delete or merge were utterly unwarranted. I'm lost for words at the monumental consequences that this photo will leave. I think @BakedintheHole's summary above - "a succinct summary of one piece in an incredibly complex puzzle" is a more eloquent one than I can devise. Aubernas (talk) 05:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Many here have said this is notable because there are a bunch of newspaper articles that mention it; I don't think this argument holds up. There are many things that have been mentioned in a bunch of newspaper articles. Should we create articles for Donald Trump's eyebrows, Donald Trump's eyes, Donald Trump's nose, Donald Trump's mouth, Donald Trump's chin, Donald Trump's neck, Donald Trump's shoulders, et cetera? These have all been mentioned in a bunch of newspaper articles many times. How many of these can we do? Must we get all the way to Donald Trump's spleen? Can we go further back? How about William McKinley's right thumb? George Washington's ankles? jp×g 05:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ahah. Very droll of you.

Seriously, go ahead if you want. We'll delete them straight away, of course (sorry William McKinley and your fabulous thumbs) and keep this, because this is actually an important historical event. Not just a subjectively strange-looking body part for a mere caricature on NBC's Saturday Night Live Aubernas (talk) 05:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This unproductive comment by JPxG should be ignored by the closer because there is no significant coverage in reliable sources of those ludicrous redlinked topics, whereas this mugshot is the subject of significant coverage in many reliable sources, which consistently describe it as "iconic" and "historic". Cullen328 (talk) 06:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I get 41 news results for "Trump's ears", 27 news results for "Obama's ears", and 10 news results for "McKinley's hand"; one would hope our notability criteria take into account whether something is a genuinely independent subject, or whether it's a minute facet of something that is given extremely heavy news coverage. There are enough news sources that we could easily clear GNG for Joe Biden's activities on July 15, 2021 -- the question is "why can't this be part of Timeline of the Joe Biden presidency (2021 Q3)?" jp×g 07:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Georgia election racketeering prosecution - The photo does not warrant it's own page as of now, but definitely it's own section on said page. ~ AlaskaGal~ ^_^ 05:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep for now. I'd think the mug shot of this (Redacted) will be famous for many, many years. At worse it's a merge to Donald Trump. No prejudice on revisting if we are wrong, and it's forgotten in the mists of time. Nfitz (talk) 05:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a minute - the courts can refer to him as a r**ist in a written decision, but I can't? Nfitz (talk) 06:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – The photograph is important enough for a page in its own right. -Mad Mismagius (talk) 05:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Georgia election racketeering prosecution. Although this is a major event in American history, the mug shot should not have its own page, unless we were to also add separate pages for the mug shots of the rest of his inner circle. Consider WP:NETRUMP, and that Wikipedia is meant to be politically neutral. If I were to create a page devoted to Joe Biden stumbling as he climbed a flight of stairs, it would be speedily deleted and possibly (not likely) redirected to a section about his health in a larger article. The documentation of this event does have some merit, but not on its own. Please merge. Hotdog with ketchup (talk) 05:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The shortcoming of your argument, Hotdog with ketchup, is that the depth of coverage of the Trump mugshot is vastly greater and deeper than the depth of coverage of the mugshots of other RICO indictees. Cullen328 (talk) 07:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Sources already include:

One image, one face, one American moment: The Donald Trump mug shot (Associated Press, Aug 24, 2023, "an enduring image that will appear in history books long after Donald Trump is gone.")
Belligerence and hostility: Trump’s mugshot defines modern US politics (The Guardian, Aug 24, 2023)
What to know about Trump’s mug shot (Politico, Aug 24, 2023, "it’s already breaking the internet. [...] Trump’s photo is significant because it’s the first time a criminal mug shot has been taken of any U.S. president or former president.")
Trump's historic mug shot released in Georgia election case (Axios, Aug. 24, 2023, "Trump has now made history as not only the first U.S. president — sitting or former — to face criminal charges, but the first to have their mug shot taken.")
Trump mug shot released after booking in Fulton County Jail (The Washington Post, Aug. 24, 2023, "The prospect of a former president’s booking photo leading newscasts was unprecedented. [...] Leading up to Thursday, gamblers were placing bets on various aspects of the anticipated mug shot, from what Trump would wear to whether he would smile.")
Trump’s mug shot is released, a first in his four criminal cases this year. (The New York Times, Aug. 24, 2023, "Mr. Trump’s mug shot photo shows a severe expression, contrary to what we have seen from a few other defendants, some of whom have smiled.")
Presidential mug shot of inmate No. P01135809 is stark in its simplicity (CNN, Aug. 24, 2023, "The mug shot of Donald Trump instantly became one of the most iconic images of anyone who served as commander in chief.")
Historic Trump mugshot released after arrest in Atlanta, Georgia (BBC, Aug 24, 2023, "Donald Trump has surrendered in Georgia on charges of plotting to overturn the state's 2020 election results in an arrest that saw the first ever mugshot of a former US president.")
Trump tweets mugshot in return to former Twitter platform X (The Guardian and agencies, Aug 24, 2023)

I think the WP:RAPID section of the WP:EVENT guideline supports a keep of this article for now, because there are a variety of sources, including news analysis and commentary that indicate at minimum, further time is warranted to allow this article to develop, because international reliable sources are suggesting historical significance, and the coverage is placing this event in context. Beccaynr (talk) 06:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – For now at least. A mug shot of a former president is notable per its rarity. Sources are good. Could be revisited in a year or two to see how this whole event ended.BabbaQ (talk) 06:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Obviously notable given the extraordinary amount of press that this incident has recieved. Zippybonzo | Talk (he|him) 07:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I think it is an important article to have given the significance of the photo. I do, however, think that a better title may be needed as the title is a bit off to me and doesn't seem like a Wikipedia article. Pacamah (talk) 07:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Unique event in U.S. history Art Smart ^Chart/Heart 07:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Already has articles in foreign languages claiming it is a historic photo, and it has been tweeted by the subject himself as his first post-Elon tweet. Jane (talk) 07:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 77: / Line 77: @@
 :'''Keep:''' I think it is an important article to have given the significance of the photo. I do, however, think that a better title may be needed as the title is a bit off to me and doesn't seem like a Wikipedia article. [[User:Pacamah|Pacamah]] ([[User talk:Pacamah|talk]]) 07:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * '''Keep''': Unique event in U.S. history [[User:Arthur Smart|Art Smart]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Arthur Smart|<font color="#0047AB">'''Chart'''</font>]]</small></sup>/[[User talk:Arthur Smart#top|<font color="#0047AB"><small>'''Heart'''</small></font>]] 07:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
+*'''Keep''' Already has articles in foreign languages claiming it is a historic photo, and it has been tweeted by the subject himself as his first post-Elon tweet. [[User:Jane023|Jane]] ([[User talk:Jane023|talk]]) 07:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:44, 25 August 2023

Mug shot of Donald Trump

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